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BBBAAAAAWWWWW is the sound they make…. that's descriptive enough, right?

Just… reading this back to myself before publishing it, I just want to warn any family members that may read this (And some friends who may not want any TMI) to… uh, not read this… No… seriously, just. Skip it.

While just browsing the web the other night, after the whole Scott Adams thing, I ended up on some MRA sites, and I ended up on a lot of feminist sites.

While there are a lot of things I could say about MRS sites, and MRAs in general, I decided to post something different here.

See, I ran into this post which lists all the warning signs that a man is a rape-supporter.

This is a handy guide for women who involve themselves with men. I’ve recently received a bunch of comments from men who say that they aren’t rape supporters because they (1) have never “raped” a woman and/or (2) are gay. If you are around a man who claims to be anti-rape, see how he stacks up.

A man is a rape-supporter if…

  • He has ever sexually engaged with any woman while she was underage, drunk, high, physically restrained, unconscious, or subjected to psychological, physical, economic, or emotional coercion.
  • He defends the current legal definition of rape and/or opposes making consent a defense.
  • He has accused a rape victim of having “buyer’s remorse” or wanting to get money from the man.
  • He has blamed a woman for “putting herself in a situation” where she “could be” attacked.
  • He has procured a prostitute.
  • He characterizes prostitution as a “legitimate” “job” “choice” or defends men who purchase prostitutes.
  • He has ever revealed he conceives of sex as fundamentally transactional.
  • He has gone to a strip club.
  • He is anti-abortion.
  • He is pro-”choice” because he believes abortion access will make women more sexually available.
  • He frames discussions of pornography in terms of “freedom of speech.”
  • He watches pornography in which women are depicted.
  • He watches any pornography in which sexual acts are depicted as a struggle for power or domination, regardless of whether women are present.
  • He characterizes the self-sexualizing behavior of some women, such as wearing make-up or high heels, as evidence of women’s desire to “get” a man.
  • He tells or laughs at jokes involving women being attacked, sexually “hoodwinked,” or sexually harassed.
  • He expresses enjoyment of movies/musicals/TV shows/plays in which women are sexually demeaned or presented as sexual objects
  • He mocks women who complain about sexual attacks, sexual harassment, street cat-calls, media depictions of women, or other forms of sexual objectification.
  • He supports sexual “liberation” and claims women would have more sex with (more) men if society did not “inhibit” them.
  • He states or implies that women who do not want to have sex with men are “inhibited,” “prudes,” “stuck-up,” “man-haters,” or psychologically ill.
  • He argues that certain male behaviors towards women are “cultural” and therefore not legitimate subjects of feminist attention.
  • He ever subordinates the interests of women in a given population to the interests of the men in that population, or proceeds in discussions as if the interests of the women are the same as the interests of the men.
  • He promotes religious or philosophical views in which a woman’s physical/psychological/emotional/sexual well-being is subordinated to a man’s.
  • He describes female anatomy in terms of penetration, or uses terms referencing the supposed “emptiness” of female anatomy when describing women.
  • He defends the physical abuse of women on the grounds of “consent.”
  • He defends the sexualization or sexual abuse of minor females on the grounds of “consent” or “willingness.”
  • He promotes the idea that women as a class are happier or more fulfilled if they have children, or that they “should” have children.
  • He argues that people (or just “men”) have sexual “needs.”
  • He discusses the “types” of women he finds sexually appealing and/or attempts to demean women by telling them he does not find them sexually appealing.
  • He sexually objectifies lesbians or lesbian sexual activity.
  • He defends these actions by saying that some women also engage in them.

So, let’s see how many women reading this know at least one male over the age of 18 who does not fit this list. Anybody?

And, I have issues with it. The comment section there is long, and full of interesting (if very verbose) discussion, which, at 1am, I am not in the mood to read. Plus, I’m sure that, for a post that is a month old at this point, everything I feel like saying has already been said…and the comments section is closed… but I still want to say them.

I’m going to be one of those people who break this down bit by aggravating bit. And I’ll begin here:

He has ever sexually engaged with any woman while she was underage, drunk, high, physically restrained, unconscious, or subjected to psychological, physical, economic, or emotional coercion.

Now, there’s really not much wrong with this statement. It’s pretty much a fact that sex under any of these circumstances is considered rape. But let’s back up a sec.

  1. Under age is under the age of legal consent, no matter what, and legally, a boy who is 18 having sex with a girl who is 16 is, legally, committing statutory rape (also, older woman, younger man obviously). Now maybe I’m a bit sensitive to the subject since a good friend of mine is married to one of the best men (and certainly the best man for her) ever, and he’s 6 years her senior, and they started dating when she was 16… and they certainly did it before she was 18. And if there’s one thing I can guarantee about this man it’s that he is no rape-supporter. Maybe he is the exception to the rule, and I wouldn’t doubt it, but it does seem unfair to lump him in this category of “Rape-supporters”.
  2. Perfectly reasonable women (And men) enjoy being tied up and restrained during sex, and perfectly reasonable men (and women) enjoy restraining people during sex. This is done with complete consent. Just because a person enjoys that particular fetish does not mean they support rape.

Ok then, next up:

He has blamed a woman for “putting herself in a situation” where she “could be” attacked.

I know, cut and dry right? If he blames the woman, he must be pro-rape right?

Wrong.

Now, I don’t condone victim-blaming. I think it’s sick, honestly, and I’ve gotten in pretty heated debates over this with people. Specifically younger people. This goes beyond just rape. Victim blaming is used in many situations. Part of it, I think, is really a way to save ourselves from a world that is, in fact, crazy. It has no observable patterns that make sense. It’s chaos. And we need to know why something bad could happen to someone for no reason. So, instead of feeling bad to the victim of a rape, or a mugging, or something else, we say that they should have done [x], [y], and [z] instead, so really it’s their own fault they got mugged. Even though it’s not. Victim blaming, though really repugnant, is an observable trait of many humans (females and males) which does not make someone a rape supporter…

Especially in an American culture, so heavily dominated by Christian teachings. We learn that there is always a reason someone is a victim, it is (usually) because they have sinned in some small way. Obviously it doesn’t apply to just Christians or the devout, or anything like that, it’s a well known human characteristic. I think it’s a bad one. I don’t mean to condone it. But just because someone blames the victim (again, an act I abhor), does not mean that they wish rape on someone.

He has procured a prostitute

I don’t know about this one. I know some women believe that paying for sex = rape. But I don’t think that’s necessarily so.  And truthfully I’d rather a man pay for sex than force sex on someone who doesn’t want it.

For one, I believe a man who has sex with prostitutes is no necessarily a bad man. Perhaps a sexually desperate one (perhaps a young man, who is a virgin, and does not want to be). I also think that the kind of guy who would pay for a prostitute is the type of guy who is not pro-rape because he realizes that doing that is wrong, and at least prostitution has some semblance of consent.

I didn’t have a “for two” here. I know this isn’t the best point to contend, but again, I don’t think hiring a prostitute in and of itself means a man is pro-rape.

Nor a woman, should she hire a male prostitute.

He characterizes prostitution as a “legitimate” “job” “choice” or defends men who purchase prostitutes.

Since I try to be as egalitarian as possible (for me), I am applying all of these definitions to women. That being said, I am now officially a supporter of rape. Yeah. Awesome.

He has gone to a strip club.

Pffft. I don’t think I can add any more to this. Just. Pffft. Honestly. A strip club? Sure, I don’t think everyone likes the idea of a strip club, but just going to one (during a bachelor or bachelorette party, for example) doesn’t imply pro-rape. Even if you go there alone, it doesn’t mean you think “Oh man, that wo/man deserves to get raped! Wooo!” Sometimes you just like to look.

He is anti-abortion.

Anti abortion means just that. It is not a stance I necessarily agree with, but, again, it doesn’t mean that he supports rape. I don’t see the connection at all. It does mean that he believes life happens at conception, and he’s probably religious. But pro-rape is a jump.

He watches pornography in which women are depicted

What? How? I don’t… Look. People watch porn. They watch porn for a variety of reasons. Now, I feel like this argument is really about whether or not porn is demeaning towards women (fact: some is and some isn’t). But just because a man wants to jack off to two lesbians doesn’t mean he would support someone coming in there and raping the shit out of them. Men and women alike watch porn. I’ve seen porn with women in it. I’ve seen a LOT of porn with women in it. I’ve seen porn from women-owned companies. And , of course, to be fair, since I’m straight, exactly 100% of the porn I’ve seen is in fact pornography in which men are depicted. Man, I’m TOTALLY pro-rape.

He watches any pornography in which sexual acts are depicted as a struggle for power or domination, regardless of whether women are present.

God, I am SO pro-rape because I enjoy dom/sub porn. It’s just a fetish my friend. Some people get off on it, and yet have no desire to actually have that happen to them, to actually do those acts, etc… The actual dangerous porns are the ones that (and I’m sure they’re out there) depict a REAL rape, and snuff films.

It’s a bit hard to argue, I accept, that a person’s sexual fantasies may not actually correlate with their sexual realities, but it’s a matter of personal experience that I can say it’s at least true for me.

He expresses enjoyment of movies/musicals/TV shows/plays in which women are sexually demeaned or presented as sexual objects

So this pretty much means almost everything anyone ever watches. Call me a rapist, but I love me some video games! And I am fully aware of how women in games are (generally) there to be pretty to look at.

He ever subordinates the interests of women in a given population to the interests of the men in that population, or proceeds in discussions as if the interests of the women are the same as the interests of the men.

First off, I’m not even sure what this is trying to say, but I’ll give it a shot. I’m guessing that it means

  1.  He thinks men’s needs/rights/interests are more important that women’s or
  2.  He thinks men and women want the same thing.

I don’t know about this one. I think this would be more of  case of selfishness and/or close-mindedness than pro-rapedness. Along with that, I’m not entirely sure that thinking than men and women wanting the same thing is necessarily a bad thing. What if he’s in a discussion about rape and thinks that the rape laws need to be stricter? I’d agree with him.

Mostly, what this definiton, of what someone who is pro-rape believes, needs is some sense of context.

He promotes the idea that women as a class are happier or more fulfilled if they have children, or that they “should” have children.

There are plenty of cultures out there who believe this. As such, while it does not jive with me, and a man who dated me that believed this would either be left at the curb or learn differently, it doesn’t mean they’re pro-rape. There are women who feel this way too, more common among the older generation, but certainly still in existence with the younger ones. Just because they assume to know what would make a woman happy or complete doesn’t mean he wants her raped, or would be happy if she were, or wouldn’t track down that guy who did it and blow his penis off.

He argues that people (or just “men”) have sexual “needs.”

I argue that people have sexual needs. I don’t think anyone could ever say that people don’t have sexual needs. The problem comes when s/he uses that as a justification for doing something.

For example:

  • I have sexual needs. So I buy a dildo from a sex shop.
  • My friend has sexual needs, so he uses a home made fleshlight
  • Billy cheated on his wife because he has sexual needs that she didn’t fulfil.

One of these things is not like the other.

The problem isn’t arguing that you have sexual needs, the problem is in how you feel you should go about fulfilling them. Just saying you have sexual needs does not a rape-supporter make.

He discusses the “types” of women he finds sexually appealing and/or attempts to demean women by telling them he does not find them sexually appealing.

Tall, blond hair, blue eyed, with slight frame. Bam! Pro-rape.

Goddam, but we all do this. We ALL discuss who and what we find sexually appealing in another. Likewise, when we are approached by someone we are not attracted to, we someone find a way to demean them… or let them down gently. Women may not say “God you’re ugly” but they may very well say “Fuck off” or laugh at you with a group of her friends. This doesn’t make women pro-rape. It certainly doesn’t make men pro-rape.

He sexually objectifies lesbians or lesbian sexual activity.

This needs to be broken up an reworded:

Sexually objectifies people

Bad

Sexually obectifies lesbian sexual activity

not really all that rare or surprising and seems pretty much natural. I don’t see how that would make someone pro-rape. Does a woman who sexually objectifies gay sexual activity make her pro-rape? No.

Plus, I’m not certain how you can sexually objectify sex. I think sex is meant to be sexually objectified.

He defends these actions by saying that some women also engage in them.

Not some. Plenty.

So, let’s see how many women reading this know at least one male over the age of 18 who does not fit this list. Anybody?

No, because you have, effectively, documented human behavior among both genders and all sexual orientations (except, obviously, asexual people), to prove some sort of point. What? That ALL men support rape? Maybe my male friends, although they fit some descriptions here, are the exception because I know there is no situation in which they think that rape is a-ok. But I highly doubt that.

There are a couple that I have  problem with, though I can’t articulate why:

He is pro-”choice” because he believes abortion access will make women more sexually available

He frames discussions of pornography in terms of “freedom of speech.”

He supports sexual “liberation” and claims women would have more sex with (more) men if society did not “inhibit” them.

Rape is a horrible thing. But what I think is also horrible is putting all men on trial for the actions of a few. Men do rape. Not all men rape.

Maybe I’m being defensive because, although I have been hurt by men in the past, I’ve still been lucky to know some pretty amazing guys who I am glad to call my friends. And my brother who never once treated any of his girlfriends like dirt (though they’ve treated him like worse), and my dad and uncles, who, I guess all having girls, take the idea of rape and women’s rights seriously.

In the end, I just can’t villainize all men. Or even most men.

…unless they’re up against women on Jeopardy, then they’re the devil and probably cheating.

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